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  1. #1

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    Struggling vs. double dps

    Just started playing WW Monk with my RDruid friend. We are doing well against dps/healer combos but struggle vs. big burst teams like Fire mage/destro or fire mage/rogue. He gets locked down, I get stunned, and im dead in 3 seconds or less.

    I thought double dps was supposed to be easy meat for this combo and healer/dps a bit more challenging but we're finding it the opposite.

    Any suggestions here? It's just savage how fast I can go down.

    ilvl is 402 so I don't think my monk is terribly undergeared. Still learning, getting time on task, so looking for how to approach it. We have to be doing something terribly wrong.

    I've tried proactive dampen or fortifying. Tried running but LOS can be a bit of a challenge depending on map. Add a frost mage or rogue to any big caster and using LOS gets near impossible. Tiger's lust clears snare but its pretty easy to get reapplied if I'm the target.

    A few thoughts.

    1. Should I play super conservative? I've tried running when infernals drop. I still die to cc/Chaos.

    2. Should I play aggressive? This seems to be a failure too. I still get stunned, rooted, something. 3 seconds isn't very long to go down.

    3. Do we need to focus on cc'ing primarily and just harry them?

    4. If we play slow, as in hide most of the time and only come out with cooldowns, doesn't dampening benefit the double dps more than us?

    It just feels like we're always a poly or disorient away from losing vs. big hitters. Warriors and Pallys? No problem. 80k chaos bolts not so much.

    Thanks in advance for any advice on how to approach this.
    Last edited by CityMiles; 03-16-2019 at 03:06 PM.

  2. #2

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    Heya!

    Ok i've recently been playing with WW monks on my druid too! And we found double dps comps quite hard and that's with things like pre ironbarking smoke bombs and pre karma'ing stuns, it's not that you're doing anything particularly wrong its just you dont have that instant burst that other clases do, you need some sort of build up time which you dont really get vs these comps
    However i have a few ideas for you that might help you win and / or get a better win ratio vs them!

    Even if your druid is sometimes being hit by these comps, playing feral affinity is still WAY worth it just because of the initial damage, like rogue/mage has very little healing, if you can get a rake stun, shred once and get a 2 combo point rip, and moonfire, then go bear form while the monk (in this case you) Start doing damage to the mage, it should pressure them enough to do a go, which you can dictate. My point here is the reason why healer/dps usually stomps on rogue/mage teams and other double teams is because they have something to fall back on, rogue/mage does not, meaning they will be forced to do a 'go' now this might all seem useless however knowing that they will HAVE to do a go this will give you good time to 'PRE' use something, ring of peace / wall / dampen harm etc etc.

    All your points are very good observations on the games you've played against these sorta comps, however i think being aggressive is the best thing vs these sorta comps, the other options are just doing them a favour, if you're defensive Vs rogue mage its a slippery slope, They have the same mind set, they need to be as aggressive as possible all game, trying to do "Go's" as much as possible without taking too much damage.
    Most rogue mages get usually 2-3 goes Vs most comps before they die to damage, meaning any damage you do is pretty permanent.

    I notice you mention Lock/x double dps teams, As a WW you're REALLY disruptive with a stun / ring of peace / and kick of course, and having a port behind pillar for when you cant stop anymore casts. Now no matter what dps they are playing with always try and train the lock. However i should add a caveat and say you should only use these stops during his wall (Unending resolve), incap it / stun it / knock it (Usually you've stunned him already before he gets to this point, however again my point will be that WW is a VERY disruptive force in 2's especially against casters. Now there's always the possibility that you're stunned and you cant use these things and that brings me into my next point.

    Your trinket, you should ONLY trinket if you're going to die or going to 1 million percent kill him, meaning saving trinket + karma for these times where they go all in with stun on you and big damage incoming. I don't mean for this to be patronising, however 'rage' trinketing will cost you the game instantly Vs these comps.

    Attempting to CC the Rogue (If you chose to hit mage) / Off target (whoever that is) This will help you HUGELY, May it be a Bash, or an incap will go VERY far into winning you the game, putting them in this 1v2 situation makes it very hard for them to come back. However do not go out of your way to do this since it'll most likely put you in a bad spot where you'll die, every game is different just try to adapt to whats going on.

    If they are stacked up in the opener, (For whatever reason) Its totally worth in my opinion to trinket and double legs weep them and use images and start doing damage instead of letting them get a full opener on you (This maybe because they are smoke bombing you in opener or they are just generally stacked)

    Sorry for this being so long >.< I just wanted to answer all questions you may have. Long story short, if you're not offensive, you're losing, think of it like that, That's how i take it vs these sorta comps. Unless you know you'll 100% die if you go out in the open then fine, however if you have CD's use them!

    Notes. There's some things as I've said above that you can do that'll completely shut down these comps, things like diffuse magic their maledicts, Fists of fury parry their kidney shots / stuns. There's a video here on SC that explains it pretty well , Other than doing quite a bit of damage WW Has a LOT of utility to stop these comps, As i've mentioned before, Ring of peace / leg sweep / Incap / (I forgot to mention Disarm) / Karma / Dampen harm / Good use of port. (When you put port down, try and get a bit away from your port just so you can get some value out of it

    hope i could help, tell me if i didn't

  3. #3

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    Follow up for Zenzy

    Thank you Zenzy. Such an awesome, detailed response. I appreciate that you took the time to be so thorough and thoughtful.

    A few follow ups.

    Ring of Peace - To run this as WW I have to give up Good Karma. Maybe I'm missing the use here, but the hp swing of healing me while I both don't take damage and also redirect it is pretty amazing. Also, if applied before our opponents "go" it can almost generate a reset. Now, that said, it strikes me that Ring of Pace can be one of the most creatively used abilities in the game. I just need to run it.

    Question: Vs. 2dps do you recommend Ring of Peace vs. Good Karma given the interrupts and range it can help provide? Interrupts obviously vs casters but range only mattering to mele, it seems more disruption than survivability. In short, I can convince myself of either argument and would appreciate your more knowledgeable feedback.

    Dampen/Fortify vs. Diffuse Magic - I tend to run Diffuse Magic vs. Frost Mages so I can reverse roots. For Fire and Desto I like to double up on dampners with both Dampen Harm and Fortifying Brew. If they have a rogue, I've been running Dampen and Disarm. But this may be the wrong combo. Its logical, but I don't think its working... . Any thoughts here?

    Turbo on Kidney Shot - I'll rewatch JoeFernandes's video on turbo fists, but any suggestions on how to anticipate that Kidney Shot is coming? This may be remedial but I certainly don't have it down. I track it with omnibar but knowing its up is different than knowing it will be used.

    Other than Feral, any tips for the druid? I assume use the opener you suggested, including bear to avoid poly, then get around a corner and look for clone. If they chase him, we nearly always win. Its only when they get on me that we struggle.

    Positioning - Do you discusss positioning with your partner each game? I regularly find myself running in the wrong direction, not being as aware as I should be of his position. If I run too close to him they can get a free mele interrupt. Its a balance. By the way, this would be an awesome topic for a video. We are going to get some schematics for each and talk through locations and basically make play sheets. See if that works.

    One last point. I've never seen you be patronizing. I played in Molton Core, and came back at 8.0. I'm learning. All info is good info. I appreciate the insights and, in a game filled with so many variables, absolutes are even better. So much to take in. Makes it fun.
    Last edited by CityMiles; 03-18-2019 at 09:03 PM.

  4. #4

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    Heya :X
    Sorry for the late reply i was super busy irl

    Not many people i see play good karma, just because of the value ring of peace has when used correctly and efficiently, however if you think you're not able to use RoP efficiently then good karma is fine i guess, but as i said not many people use it just because of the fact most people stop hitting into karma, therefore negating the healing talent all together. On very rare occasions people will try to kill you through karma if you're really really low.

    Dampen vs fortify, The way people are playing 2's atm, its very maledict heavy, so having diffuse magic as a 2nd dispel for these maledicts can be very good, the fact it reduces magical damage is a good side thing. From my experience with facing / playing with WW monks, its usually diffuse against everything that doesn't have big one shot damage, fury warriors / rets etc ( Generally melee, since diffuse is a more reliable damage reduction vs casters)

    The only other tip i have for druids is that you have SO much mobility, a lot of druids don't abuse it enough, i recently got 2.6 cr on my druid, and nearly every game I'm practically untouchable except for the odd occasion of messing kiting or going for more cc than i need too. Tiger dash is VERY good against things that have low ish mobility and want to kill you; again rets / rogues etc, i should add a caveat to that actually, since looking at it now you're looking for double dps advice, using your wild charge ability can get you out of bad situations, may it be charging to your partner or going cat form, leaping to an enemy that's far, then going into bear / normal form to heal or recover.

    I don't really discuss my positioning each game with my partner, mainly its things like " I Will trinket first " etc just cool down usage, since bad cool down usage is really the only way a healer/dps team can lose to a double dps team, but i do see the value of talking it out each game (Edit The only way i'd talk about positioning in 2's is usually against rogues, i tell my partner to MAX range me, so i can't get CC'd easily and them ones hoting my dps in opener, or going up/down on XZ Axis maps. Just think about the rogues travel time in between sap and starting up on their kill target.


    It's not as long as before but i think i covered most points to a good degree. Hope i could help

  5. #5

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    It worked!

    We played a combo like this and followed your recommendations. Worked like a charm. Just wanted to let you know, great advice, and netted us a win. Thank you.

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